Evaluation of Keystone RV, the manufacturer of our 2021 Keystone Montana 3812MS 5th Wheel.

Everything that affects Rvers, in one way or another, has a bearing on someone else. Whether it is a product or distributor, a store that caters to RVers and RVing, or an RV dealer or manufacturer, the evaluations/reviews of their products or of their own willingness to stand by their products and make things right for the consumers that have trusted them with the purchase of their products, always serve to warn or positively/negatively influence other RVers, and likewise the manufacturers and distributors. 

In our last POST we told you we would continue to UPDATE you as to our issues with KEYSTONE and their willingness to honor their warranty and 'fix' the issues that were deficient in their product.

As last stated, since bringing our new baby home, we found another issue as well as all the others identified in that post. This last issue was a water leak from the roof coming through the rear A/C and A/C vent into the living room. Given that this new problem was not going to solve itself and most likely would not wait until we could take it to Keystone Service Center in Goshen IN. So far the leak produced about 1 cup of water in a light rainstorm that lasted about 2 hours. When the heavier rainstorms of summer come, who knows what kind of leak or damage would occur. So we decided that we needed to take care of this problem right away and hopefully Keystone would agree and pay us back for our expense to do so. We used a local 28-year experienced, Certified Master RV Technician, Bob Zilka (Doctor RV in Star Valley ) 

To avoid any further damage, Bob came out right away (May 13th), while we were in Idaho Falls (Idaho) for a dentist appointment. We left the RV open for him because he is very trust-worthy. If you are in Star Valley in Wyoming (between Alpine and Afton), feel free to give him a call. We will always call back and will accommodate 'emergencies or people 'traveling through on a tight schedule'. 

When we got back from Idaho Falls, he said he fixed it none too soon as it was raining here. He used an umbrella to keep the rain from going into the RV, as he had to lift out the rear A/C, because as he stated it, it was not correctly installed by the factory. There is a hole where the A/C sits in and two hose holes (one for the intake and one for the cold air out). He said when he took the cover off, he could see into the inside of the RV because the A/C was not set into the hole correctly and the two smaller holes the gaskets were not correctly installed either. So he fixed it, installed it correctly and sealed the hoses and gaskets. We have had three other rainstorms in the past week (one a strong one)… absolutely NO LEAKS. Now, hopefully Keystone will pay us back for our necessary expense, given it was due to their factory techs screw up, but whether they do or not, we were not going to let their bad quality damage our RV further.

Not knowing that Bob would have been able to come out that soon, the day before, on May 12, 2022, we wrote to The Keystone RV Customer Service (Owner Relations) trying to see what might be the procedure to take our RV back to them in Goshen IN, since the dealer Camping World did not live up to their promises to take care of the issues with our RV before delivery. They offered for us to take it back to them 'later', but they are in Idaho Falls, ID (91 miles away from our home) which at 8mpg on our diesel F350 would cost us 23 gals of diesel at $5.95/gal now... $136.85, all because they LIED to us about having fixed it in those 3 days we gave them after buying it. One of the issues is a warped door, which would best be handled at the Keystone RV Customer Service Center in Goshen, rather than the dealer having to order one and then wait until they get it. Below ids the EMAIL we sent to them at their 'Owner Relations' email contact address they offered on their website... 

to ownerrelations@keystonerv.com

May 12, 2022

Attention Keystone Customer Service 

To whom it may concern,

We recently (03/28/2022) purchased a leftover NEW 2021 Keystone Montana 3812MS Fifth Wheel (VIN 4YDF38120M4704484) at Camping World of Idaho Falls, ID. There were several issues on it that needed fixing, which our salesman promised that they would fix them before we took delivery. So we left it with them for 3 days, until 03/31/2022, and then only until then, because they pressured us to take delivery by the end of the month, but assured us that all repairs would be done. They LIED.

On the delivery date (03/31/2022) they rushed us through the closing process and had the RV parked in their parking lot ready to just pull out with it, and the salesman said that his tech would show us how to hook up the fifth wheel (our very first one, as we have always had diesel pusher before it) so we could be on our way, while he attended to another delivery he had at the same time. Lo and behold it was not until we arrived at home with it and set it up and opened it up, that we noticed that they had fixed absolutely NOTHING of all the issues reported to them, and had NOT even detailed it, as  they said they would do inside. There was still glue or sealer stuck on the tiles, sawdust all over the wardrobe and cabinet floors, the valance still had the scratches on it, the door handles still scratched where they apparently were banging on another door's handle, and other issues, PLUS the entry door would not close securely for two reasons, 1) it is bowed (touches at the top and bottom of the doorway, but is about 1/2" separated from the doorway in the center, so the only way to close it is to slam it hard. Even so, 2) the latch striker plate was installed too low, so the door latch hit the plate outside the hole. The striker plate had to be moved higher so the latch would go into the slot. I had to take care of this myself, in order to be able to lock the door, even half-assed, as to raise the striker plate any higher would leave the screw hole exposed. However, there is still the issue of the door bowed (or warped) which requires slamming the door to close it.  The issue with the valance in the hallway across from the bathroom door is that as the door fully opens, it rubs on the valance scratching it. Also that door swings all the way fully open and the handle hits the other door (closet/cabinet), scratching it.

Now, while parked on our lot (without having moved it since bringing it home, and not having even loaded it with anything, following a rain shower, the next day we discovered a water leak coming out of the driver-side rear A/C vent (apparently coming from the rear A/C area). As we said, we haven't even tried the plumbing or shower to know if there are any other problems there. 

When I confronted the salesman about all these issues that he promised to fix before we took delivery, he said "Oh, well the tech was supposed to tell you that we had ordered a whole new bathroom door and we'll replace it when it gets here". I explained the problem is with the valance, not the door, as a smaller door would not fit right, so she said "OK so we'll order a new valance too." So I asked how it's going to be installed when it gets to them, and he said "You'll have to bring the RV back to us." It is a 100 mile trip each way , which with my F350 at 8 miles/gal, would cost us 25 gals of diesel at about $5/gal, that's $125 round-trip, all because they would not fulfill their end of our agreement. So he said to us, "OK, IF you are going to be so HARD-HEADED about it, I will take the door, valance and hardware and go to your house and install it myself." NO, that's not an option either. First I would not have anyone so rude over to my house, and as he is not a technician, he could void my warranty. I would rather take the RV to the Keystone Service Center during a trip to your area, so that way nothing has to be ordered and can be corrected by the people who know how to do it right.

We are www.RoughingItGently.com and maintain a blog of our travels with recommendations and warnings of good and bad products and services during our travels. If you go to our website, you will see the negative reviews that Camping World RV Sales earned from us, as well as a view of our purchased NEW 2021 Keystone Montana 3812MS. Despite our negative impression of Camping World, as your dealer, our impression of the Keystone Montana 3812MS RV (despite being a Thor product) is still a good one. ALL RVs have initial issues which need to be addressed, so we don't fault you for having them as well. The difference between a good and bad impression comes from the willingness of the manufacturer or dealer to fix the issues that are deficient, as agreed. In that your dealer was delinquent, whereas hopefully you will not be as well. We are no giants, but do have over 40,000 followers to our blog, internationally.

So, since we are planning a Fall (November 2022) trip up to your neck of the woods (near Elkhart-Goshen), we would rather take it to your Service Center and let you do the repairs correctly, as we have no faith in Camping World or most RV dealerships, who just have excuses telling us how bad the factory is. Would we need to arrange an appointment for that, and if so how far in advance should we call and who should we call.

QUESTION: In the meantime, we will be upgrading the RV with a Cummins-Onan LP 5500w generator (through Bill Bergstrom, Bill's Service and Repairs LLC, a Cummins Onan dealer in Loveland CO), a Traveler Dish satellite, solar panels and an Inverter with four 6V batteries, plus a Furrion Vision S 5" Monitor (3 camera wireless RV Backup System). Can you give us some recommendations as to size/capacity/rating and specs you would recommend for the solar panels and inverter for this unit?? We will do mostly campgrounds but may occasionally boondock as well.

We know and have used a Certified Master RV Technician named Bob Zilka (RV Doctor, in Thayne WY)  on previous rigs for warranty work with Fleetwood. Is he authorized to do warranty work for Keystone as well? 

While searching online, we could not find much information as to a Keystone Service Center, to fix New Warranty Issues that escaped the factory's Quality Control, though while we have never had a 5th wheel before (all were diesel pushers) we would imagine that you do have one, like all other manufacturers. So if you could direct us as to who we need to contact and their contact information, we would be glad to call them.  You can also call us to enlighten us and answer our questions.

Thanking you in advance for your assistance,

Guillermo (Bill) Garcia-Godoy

and Mary Thronson Olson

30 Last Chance Circle 7337

Star Valley Ranch, WY 83127

Cell: 352-233-0351 Bill

Cell: 321-271-7465 Mary

  

TODAY is May 23, 2022. In the last 11 days we have received NO CONTACT from KeystoneRV.com.  NOTHING... not even an acknowledgement of our contact, which does not speak very well of them. But then, they are a part of the THOR family, so everything negative we have heard and experienced of THOR Ind., must be true  perhaps we should have heeded it. On the other hand, if you are looking for a Class A (especially a diesel pusher), we can earnestly recommend Fleetwood RV. Those folks stand behind their products. Tiffin Motorhomes (Phaeton, our last diesel-pusher), once a very prominent and quality product, has also fallen by the way side, but then Bob Tiffin also sold his company to Thor Industries last year. Isn't it funny how that works? Thor keeps buying quality companies to improve their image, but no sooner they take over a quality manufacturer, the manufacturer's quality takes a dump.  

IF you are looking to buy an RV, Buyer Beware of Keystone RV. No need to ask about a Warranty because apparently they don't seem to honor it, which would explain all the 2-3 stars on their reviews as to Warranty. Even though we are willing to take the RV to them at their Service Center, they won't even take the time to respond to my communication.

We will keep trying to contact them, even if we have to go to their Main Office go to see someone starting at the bottom and asking to see the next one above that person, until we get to someone who gives a damn. Or maybe we'll have to go to a News service and taking it more PUBLIC.

In the meantime, since we have a following of over 40,000 viewers who check out our website, we'll keep reporting our experiences to our readers. We are not paid for our reviews and call them the way we experience them. A good review is good, because the product, manufacturer, warranty or whatever the issue is, just because it is. A negative review is bad for the same reasons. You are free to contact us with any questions you may have or comments as to our reviews, at roughingitgently@gmail.com 

We look forward to your visit on our next post. Happy trails!

UPDATE December 30, 2022

We have become so disillusioned with this KEYSTONE product (Montana 3812MS) that we have opted to trade out of it for another diesel pusher motor home. We had been warned that KEYSTONE is a THOR product, and from past experience with Thor we should have paid heed to them and ourselves. THOR SUCKS, as does KEYSTONE. They build a shoddy product that does not stand up to the elements and it is ieasy to understand why they won't provide their own warranty service... because if they did they would be swamped, constantly. 

IF you are considering buying a Keystone product, or ANY THOR product, don't complain when you wish you had paid attention to this warning, because it will be your own doing (and undoing). You have been warned. That is all we can do.

CONSIDERING WHERE TO REGISTER YOUR RV?

 The benefit of this lifestyle we have chosen... RV'ING, is that we are Wanderers. We are usually retired or work-at-home (or RV) and travel aimlessly, wherever we want, and as our name implies we live and travel, 'Roughing It', but 'Gently'. As such we are free to choose our residence wherever we want it to be... usually considering such factor as whether there is a State Income Tax or not, or being near our loved ones or other such reasons. In our case it was just the beauty of this area and the fact that Wyoming (the Cowboy State) represents the way of life we live for, and where most people are of the same mind set (Conservatives), as well as that every resident can Open Carry, or Concealed Carry without a license, and hunting as well as great fishing is plentiful, surrounded by beautiful scenery.    

In this crazy world that we are currently living in, and more so in this crazy environment and political climate within the United States, it would be beyond us to accept that there are many Liberals in the RV lifestyle, because no matter what type of RVing one is into... be it in large diesel pushers, small diesel pushers (Super C's), regular gasoline-powered Class A's, Class C's, Class B's, or even if it is just tent-campers, fuel is a necessary commodity that we need to use to get us to where we want to go. We cannot even fathom how those with a Bus diesel-pusher can afford to continue to enjoy our otherwise magnificent recreation. At the rate Biden-omics is going, it would not be unfathomable that Diesel #2 fuels will soon be at $8.00/gallon or higher, and Regular Unleaded will also be over the $7/gal mark. Even IF an all electric RV was developed, can you imagine how much the electric bill would be and how long it would take to 'fuel' it up electrically, for the limited distance it would travel?

Our other vehicle (the energy-efficient one) is a 2022 Ford Explorer XLT with a 2.3L Turbo (a peppy 4-cylinder) that 1) can be towed behind a motorhome (if we ever got another one); 2) can tow up to 5,300 lbs., 3) sits 4 (2 captain's chairs) with the 2 3rd-row seats folded down to allow our GSD rescue (Roxy) the full back of the car for her to sprawl out in, and 4) is supposed to have a 22mpg City and 28mpg Highway, though in our Wyoming area, we get about 26.8 average mpg. We opted to get the Explorer, as configured for several reasons, but especially because we opted to get a 5th wheel to travel (and live in when needed), which would require a diesel one-ton truck to pull it.... rather than another motorhome. 

IS IT BETTER TO REGISTER AN RV IN FLORIDA (OR ELSEWHERE) VS WYOMING.
In Wyoming, RVs (like all motor vehicles) are valued-based on their Base NEW MSRP (reduced yearly by 15%), so with a $300,000 - $400,000 Base MSRP on a diesel pusher, registrations would be through the roof. Just on our new 2021 Montana 3812MS, valued at $94,695 base MSRP, the registration was over $1,800 for just 1 year (2021-2022). In Florida our previous diesel pusher RV (MSRP $302,980) cost JUST $140 to register it in Florida for TWO YEARS. So, is it beneficial to register an RV in Florida over Wyoming? 

NOT REALLY, because of...

RV INSURANCE is a lot less expensive in Wyoming (at least in our area, which is not a dense population zip code). Actually, when you compare the differences of Vehicle Registration in Wyoming vs Florida, as well as the cost of RV Insurance in Wyoming vs Florida, the differences combined level out and make it about the same. While it would be ideal to have insurance in Wyoming and Registration in Florida, that is not a possibility. The RV's insurance has to be issued in the same State as the vehicle's registration.  Sorry!!

SO WHEN CONSIDERING WHERE TO REGISTER YOUR RV, CONSIDER ALSO THE COST OF INSURING IT AND COMPARE WHICH OPTION IS MOST BENEFICIAL TO YOU.

Everything that affects Rvers, in one way or another, has a bearing on someone else. Whether it is a product or distributor, a store that caters to RVers and RVing, or an RV dealer or manufacturer, the evaluations/reviews of their products or of their own willingness to stand by their products and make things right for the consumers that have trusted them with the purchase of their products, always serve to warn or positively/negatively influence other RVers, and likewise the manufacturers and distributors. 

Camping World: Our Review of their Product, Sales and Service, RVs and Company Standing

We have come across Camping World several times before, in search of other RVs that we have bought over the years. Luckily we found one we liked at an affordable price elsewhere, because the Camping World company philosophy has always seemed the same. In our ever so humble opinion, their company motto should have been "Buyers Beware!".

Unfortunately, the only floorplan we have liked in a 5th Wheel is the 3812MS, and the only one in our price range is a leftover 2021, and the only one like that was at Camping World (CW) Pocatello. Well, I had been talking with Gavin James in CW Idaho Falls, and he seemed like an honest and conscientious salesman, as opposed to the salesperson BilI talked with at the Pocatello store, so we offered him the opportunity to dealer trade for it and sell it out of the Idaho Falls store (a big mistake).

 

Imagine that... a unit sale that he did not even have to earn... just a freebie that fell in his lap. Now, we were not asking for anything special, that he shouldn't have given to EVERY customer; BUT we were expecting honesty and common consideration. When they brought the unit over from Pocatello, they said that it had still not been detailed and that they would do so as soon as we did the paperwork for it. They did not budge on their asking price, not one cent... so the least we expected was at least being able to count on their cleaning it inside, and ideally getting a sewer hose and water hose, as all other dealers include in their sales. Heck, motor homes even get a full tank of gas. 

During our walk through, upon actually seeing the trailer for the first time, we pointed out several 'issues' to Gavin, that were wrong with the trailer, like a door that rubbed the valance in the hallway window, and a door handle that had been scratched by rubbing on another handle on the full opened door, and scratches and chips on the closet doors, plus others, like a lot of sawdust in the main closet, and black glue on the living room floor. In all cases Gavin  would say "Don't worry, we'll take care of that... it's not a problem", and since we were not going to take delivery of it until three days later, they would have plenty of time to take care of those issues, since according to Gavin that would all be taken care while they were 'detailing' it. We also told him that we wanted to go over the trailer before we took it to make sure that all our issues had been taken care of. 

Factory sawdust is all over the cabinets. You would think IF they had 

detailed as they promised, we would not have had to deal with this.

The headboard is completely separated from the wall on 

the LEFT side, and partially separated on the RIGHT

Sealant or Glue or whatever sticky gunk this is all over the floor tile

 (which looks like someone stepped on it and wiped their feet instead 

of cleaning it, is all over the floor tiles.

Perhaps more of the stuff on the floor is also on the leather of the Thomas Payne recliners.

The non-carpet carpeting under the stove has a small tear on it.

There are several dings on the wood edges of the slides, which is really minor but could have been corrected at the factory with a marker of the same color as the wood... or included in the RV such a marker, as it being a color/shade that is not common (like brown, this is greyish), there is nothing the buyer can fix it with.

Something that we had not even noticed when we first looked at it, because the front door was already opened... the front  door was warped (bowed in the middle), which proved to have difficulty closing fully and locking (as the video shows). It turned out that either because the door was warped or because it had been installed incorrectly, the striker plate was out of alignment with the latch, and even if the door was slammed hard the striker plate was installed about 1/8" too low, so the handle latch would not go in to the striker plate. I had to move the striker plate up 1/8", so as not too leave a screw hole showing in the door frame. It now closes and locks, but one still has to slam the door hard to get it to latch. It needs a NEW DOOR. They could have told us that too, instead of hiding it.

We had agreed that in order to help him attain his 'delivered units' for that month (March 2022) we would pick it up on March 31st, but give him those few days to fix all the issues he had promised to fix... and true to our word, WE did just that... HE didn't. He LIED and then covered it up. Unlike to him, to us a promise made needed to be kept. Unfortunately, unbeknown to us, Gavin does not hold to the same values. When we arrived to pick up our trailer (as promised) he had positioned the trailer in the parking lot, headed out at the exit of the dealership, so once we hooked it up we could just LEAVE. Later, we found out that he also had another delivery that day, which explained WHY he was so eager to get us gone, so that we would not notice that he had NOT DONE ANY of the things he had promised to get done..... NO Detail... NO Repairs... NO CLEANUP... NOTHING, which we only found out about when we got it home. That's what we get for trusting in Camping World RV Sales. 

When we got the RV home and walked through it, expecting to find that all the issues we had pointed out to Gavin had been resolved, you could not imagine the surprise and pain we felt at the betrayal of Gavin's lies. We called him to let him know that we were not happy with their lies, since the coach was not 'detailed' as promised (floors still had glue on floors, scratches were still present, door still rubbed against the valance, and door handle was still gouged, etc. His response was simply... "Oh, you mean Jesse (the tech) didn't tell you?... We did not want to just repair it so we ordered you a whole NEW door and handle." So how is that going to fix it... are you expecting us to have to take it back to you at some point in the future, at an extra expense to us of a 182 mile trip, that we have not planned for??" we asked. Gavin says Yes, we'll call you when they are here".  THE NERVE!! In all the time we were there to pick up our trailer, fulfilling our promise to him to take delivery by the end of the month, he never had the honesty to look us in the eye and tell us that he had not lived up to his end of the bargain and that he expected us to have to return the trailer in the future... because he knew that we would have said that we would not take delivery, until those issues were resolved, which would have hurt his 'delivery schedule'.        

Finally, with every other RV we have purchased: a 2013 Coachmen Encounter (used), a 2016 Thor Challenger 37LX (new), a 2015 Fleetwood Discovery 40E (new), a 2020 Tiffin Phaeton 40-IH, all motorhomes, each dealership has always included a sewer hose and a water hose as gifts to celebrate the purchase (sort of as a good-will gift). However, with this 2021 Montana 3812 MS  5th Wheel (also new), purchased at Camping World, where they sell all sorts of camping equipment and one would think that they would want a new customer to continue to buy their camping equipment there, they could have included a sewer hose and water hose (neither expensive gifts) and both of very little cost to the dealership, but NOooo, not Camping World. So we'll return the favor and will never buy anything else from that or ANY OTHER CAMPING WORLD.

We love our new 2021 Keystone Montana 3812 MS 5th Wheel, however, but we are very disappointed (even disgusted) with the Camping World organization and sales force...   We have a follower of our website, who is looking to buy a large Toy Hauler and was interested to know what Camping World RV Sales was like, as they had not heard good thing about it. We wrote them back to explain that we had not had any experience with them, but would report our experience through this purchase. They probably won't be buying there after hearing of our experience with Camping World that is.  Apparently Camping World has not learned that you get more from buyers by living up to your promises and dealing with honesty and good-will, than by lying, hiding things and making decisions for your customers and not consult it with them. We still don't think they will, but they should.  Hopefully dealing with Keystone will be more pleasing.

UPDATE
Since bringing our new baby home, we found another issue, unbeknown to us before, as it had not rained before. After a rainstorm, we found a roof water leak in our Salon (Livingroom), coming from/through the driver-side rear A/C vent, apparently from the rear A/C (see photos and video). We have a little tray to hold the water, but hope that Keystone will give us an appointment to take it to their service center, as we obviously cannot depend on the dealer, Camping World to fix anything. (See photos and Video). A further UPDATE post will be published when/if all these issues are resolved by Keystone.

 

* Thanks for following our Travels Blog. As always we love to share with you our many travel adventures and destinations. We try to evaluate new products and apprise you of their positives and negatives, and warn you of the ones that are either dangerous or not in the best interest to the RV community. We are NOT PAID for any evaluation, so you can be assured that our views are strictly based on the facts... the positives being because they work and the negatives because they don't. We call them as we see it, as things are presented to us.

We'll see you on our next post, and as always feel free to write us with any questions or comments you may have.... roughingitgently@gmail.com