When we set out to make our BLOG in 2014 (which later turned into a website) it was mostly to catalog and report on all the places we travel to, but having grown to almost 100,000 views and having a steady and consistent following, a friend in the RV industry suggested we expand on our travelogue to also write about campgrounds and RV products that we come across, reporting on ‘the Good, the Bad and the Ugly’ (as it were). So, having owned four (4) different RVs in the last five (5) years (together), and Bill having had three (3) other RVs previously, living the RV lifestyle as ‘full-timers’, and having attended numerous RV rallies and shows, we decided we would add a commentary of both the good and bad points of the RVs we come to know about, for the benefit / protection of other RVers seeking to buy a new RV.
We just purchased our 4th RV (together), and as full-timers one comes to get to know all about an RV rather quickly. Our first was a 2012 Coachmen Encounter 37 Chalet pkg. (used); the second was a Thor Challenger 37 (new), which was so bad that we traded out of it after only 4 months; the next was a 2015 Fleetwood Discovery (purchased June 2016) which was generally a really good RV. Had Fleetwood maintained our 40E floor plan in 2020, we would have more than likely purchased another Fleetwood Discovery, but sadly Fleetwood dropped the 40E floor plan and the next closest to it was just not as ample, so we started to look at others. Our research and visits to different RV dealers trimmed our list of 2020 RVs to consider down to three: 1) another Fleetwood Discovery, 2) a Tiffin, and 3) an Entegra Reatta or Accolade.
As stated there was nothing really wrong with our Discovery, except that there were some things that Mary wanted to change about it, like more comfortable theater seating, exchanging our side by side refrigerator for a French door one. The tires would soon need replacing in a year or so, and so on and Bill liked the more advanced technology of the newer coaches, like the Spyder controls from just about anywhere in the coach (including next to the bed), electric remote door locks, a bigger living room TV, instant continuous hot water, etc, etc… Had Covid-19 not happened, we probably would have left on our travels on time and not thought about upgrading for another yeat or two. But it did and with nothing else to do (staying at home) we started to research other coaches and realizing that new coaches will never be less expensive, and we will never get as much for our trade as we would now, and given the low interest rates, etc, etc… we opted to trade and get what we both wanted investing the $ we would have spent upgrading the older coach, into a newer coach with the added technology already in it, and a year of General Warranty, 4 years of Paint Warranty, and 10 years of chassis warranty, as opposed to our 2015 (purchased in late 2016), which was already 5 years old.
The Entegra Accolade maybe a good enough RV for a non-live aboard, but for a full timer there is just nowhere near enough storage room. The Reatta is a nice coach with some good features, but in the end it is actually in the lower end of their diesel lineup, and in the details, it shows. So, for the same $$$ as the Fleetwood and Tiffin, we discarded it.
That left us the Tiffin. They have the Wayfarer (C Class, 25LW, 24TW, 25QW and 25RW); the Allegro Breeze, small (31’-6” and 33’-6”) diesel pusher class A; the Allegro RED 340 models 33 AL (35’-2”) and 38LL (39’-6”), a little more luxurious features but still not quite our desired floorplan layout; an Allegro RED (38KA, 37PA, 37BA and 33AA) with a combination of luxury and lower price by skimping on some of the more luxurious features as on the Phaeton; the Phaeton 44OH, 40IH, 40AH, 40QKH, 40QBH, and the 37BH; there’s also the luxurious Allegro BUS (35CP, 37AP, 40AP, 40IP and 45OPP); and then the elitist Zephyr 45PZ, unsurpassed in luxury, but with an equally impressive price tag. The Phaeton 40IH seemed to be the closest resemblance of what we needed as to comfortable living space and layout, with the right technological upgrades and though the price tag was a bit more than we had hoped for, as it had the Power Glide chassis and a 450hp engine, given that this one had the inside and outside colors we wanted and was available within 250 miles from our location. In hindsight perhaps we should have ordered one to our specifications and gone to the factory to make sure it was built correctly, instead of rhe way this one was built.
We went to La Mesa RV in Tucson, but they did not have the exact color we wanted. They only had a Black & Red one with dark cabinets which only darkened the interior (yuk!). Then we found the one we wanted at a La Mesa in Mesa AZ and drove there to see it. The internet salesman there just showed it to us on site and it was dirty outside so a lot of the paint issues were not readily visible until it was washed for delivery in Tucson. We did notice and pointed out the severely warped door and many other issues both inside and outside, but the salesman said that either the dealer in Tucson would correct all those issues or we could take it to the Service Center in Red Bay AL to have them taken care of better and quicker by the manufacturer, who should have not let the vehicle leave their factory in such a sorry state of disrepair, but that all RV manufacturers have a very poor level of good Quality Control (QC).
The dealer (La Mesa) was interested in only one thing… SELLING an RV. They agreed that QC sucks at Tiffin, but also repeated many times that Bob Tiffin will ALWAYS stand by their products and will make good any discrepancies to satisfy his customers. So given that fact (if it is a fact, as we have yet to be convinced of that) and given the large amount of issues on this RV, we opted to make our first ‘shake-down cruise’ a trip to the Service Center at Red Bay AL. We tried to make an appointment, but they don’t take appointments. Customers with issues on their rigs have to gland wait for their turn to be attended. They will give priority to RVs under 12 months old (i.e. still under new vehicle warranty), however we were told at that time that they would only address TEN (10) issues… due to Covid-19. Boy that sounds like such a copout. They don’t offer to extend the 12-month warranty, due to Covid-19… just to limit the amount of issues they will take care of.
We were upset and went to see the Service Manager, Timothy Massey (who comes from being a previous plant manager and has had a long career with Tiffin). He is a very nice man and seeing our list of discrepancies with their product (especially as to the paintwork and Spyder controls system) got involved and tried to get as many of our issues taken care of, as possible. Given his willingness to try to attend to our needs, we also offered to just address the most important ones at this time, offering to bring it back in October, for them to address all the remaining ones, before the warranty expired. However, since they won’t give anyone an appointment, it is a difficult task to accomplish.
Following is our list of issues with this BRAND NEW Tiffin product, and what was fixed, what not really fixed, and what was not even addressed, which will have to wait until October. Some things they say have no cure, despite that they are a definite safety issue and given an accident from them will undoubtedly bring a lawsuit against them, as they have been put on notice, given the opportunity to fix them, and refused to do so.
LIST OF DEFECTS (built 01/30/2020, just 3 months old when purchased)
- Right Rear View Mirror appears to have an arm too short as the driver can only see left ½ of the mirror before corner panel blocks it. For whatever dumb reason, the P/S rearview mirror was moved from the front of the corner to the side of the corner, and since the windshield no longer wraps around the corner, that cuts the angled view from the driver’s seat to the point that one (a tall person sitting back) can only see the left ½ of that side mirror. They have added the TripleVision camera screen, where one can see all three (Rear, Left and Right) views on the same screen, however that necesitatesnecessitates one looking down (away from the road) and even then can only see a partial view of that viewpoint. It needs adjustment to fix the problem or increasing the arm length to afford a better view around that corner, as this is a safety issue. ADDRESSED, BUT NOT REPAIRED. Their solution was to rotate the arm so far to the left that it is actually angled inside the frame footprint and even so only affords a view of ¾ of the mirror. Satisfactory? NOT! We should have stayed with a Fleetwood Discovery.
- GIRARD AWNING
1. P/S SLIDE FRONT topper awning does not roll up when the slide is retracted. REPAIRED by Girard Awnings, where Tiffin sent us, BUT NOT by Tiffin.
- SLIDE
1. P/S FRONT Slide itself is either misaligned or warped. Front side does not go in as much as the rear side of the slide, leaving a bigger gap in the front side, with less pressure on the seal. REPAIRED
2. P/S REAR Slide itself is either misaligned or warped. Front side does not go in as much as the rear side of the slide, leaving a bigger gap in the front side, with less pressure on the seal. REPAIRED
3. D/S FRONT slide mechanism rubs on RV side wall causing damage to slide wall. Slide mechanism REPAIRED, damage to the slide wall NOT REPAIRED
- SLIDE TRAY
1. FRONT TRAY does lock to either side. REPAIRED
2. P/S BAY DOOR of FRONT TRAY, apparently tray not locking has bent the latch mechanism on the bay door and bent the door slightly at the bottom. REPAIRED
3. D/S BAY DOORS some latches need adjustments to close fully and easily, which the dealer refused to do. REPAIRED
- TELEVISION
1. OUTSIDE TV not working. No picture or sound with any LG remote. Should be able to see and hear what the Living Room TV shows, on either In-Motion or Trav’ler Dish. SEMI-REPAIRED (Now In-Motion does not work.)
- SPYDER CONTROL SYSTEM
1. SCREEN Flick ers uncontrollably sometimes (see owner’s video) REPAIRED
2. SPYDER SYSTEM Exterior Temperature says 10+ degrees more than actual temp. (see owner’s photos) and the bay temperature shows warmer than the outside temp. REPAIRED CLOSER (+/- 2degrees)
3. SPYDER SYSTEM Tank Levels go up and down on their own, erratically and overnight, on both central monitor next to half-bath and front door monitor… it is totally unreliable. Probably needs a replacement. NOT REPAIRED (They fluctuate up and down without any actual change to them. Ex: Grey tank valve is open, but Grey reading is sometimes “Empty”, sometimes “10%”, sometimes even “20%”, then back to “Empty again with the valve open at all times and the RV parked on its jacks (level). It is totally unreliable as to the actual condition of the tank levels.
- DAY/NIGHT SHADES
1. BOTH Solar and Night SHADES over windshield are off center by about 1” or more, so NIGHT Shade catches on D/S track and has caused white shade to wrinkle badly, now looking like crap. This offset also allows viewing in from outside at night, on P/S. Needs replacing and reinstalling correctly so it slides down both right & left tracks correctly, sealing views from front. REPAIRED
2. BOTH Solar & Night SHADES on Driver’s window are too short (width-wise) and leave a gap on front side, through which anyone outside can view inside motorhome at night. IF this is a design goof/flaw, then at least give us an extra triangular cushion like the one that goes on the little window across from this one, to block out this piss poor design. NOT REPAIRED (This is a design or manufacturing failure. The molding is such that the shades can only come down to a level above the bottom frame, allowing about a ½” gap between bottom of shade and top of lower windshield frame. Frankly, we expected better quality from a Tiffin product and even more so from a near top of the line, Phaeton 40-IH.)
- WOODWORK
1. Half-Bath DOOR is severely warped, needs replacement to close normally. Even if forced shut, the bottom of door does not match frame of door, sticking out. SEMI-REPAIRED. They can replace any manner of wooden trim work on the spot, but it takes them 6 WEEKS to make a simple door, and then they have to order it elsewhere to be made and then shipped to the customer, who we guess has to figure out how to install it him/herself. NOT GOOD CUSTOMER RELATIONS or SUPPORT.
2. Frame over bed is damaged (deeply gouged), needs replacement. REPAIRED. However, unfortunately, the damage was deemed caused by the O/H fan blades, which due to being mounted too close to the headboard, was cutting the slide trim when that slide was closed and the fan either had a blade pointed at the slide, or it was turned on if dry camping. Because of poor installation there was no way that they could re-position the installation of the fan, so the buyer has to suffer for their mistake by having to now have tiny (smaller) blades that don’t hardly move any air. PISS POOR QUALITY
3. Right Cabinet Door, immediately to the left of M/W has rough texture finish, and it looks like there’s even someone’s hair in the varnished result. Needs to replace that door. NOT REPAIRED.
4. Woodwork damaged during production on right side of full bath vanity face, to the right of the right medicine cabinet mirrored door. NOT REPAIRED.
5. Gap in headboard wall, with space between panels. REPAIRED with tape.
- BROKEN/MISSING PARTS
1. Furnace Vent Grille under shower was that way when we took delivery. REPAIRED
2. We asked Dealer to raise the Rock Guard one rung, but they said that Tiffin requires it at that height which is why they use wire to secure it in place. As a consequence it apparently was too low and hit the road on a dip causing this damage, BOTH to the Rock Guard and the underside of the fiberglass. REPAIRED
- PAINT
1. There are multiple paint defects of running paint, paint chips and deep scratches/gouges, especially on edges/sides of slides and bay doors. Also some spots totally missed and some with clear coat missed. It looks like an apprentice painter tried to paint this coach and then hoped no one would notice all his/her goofs. (See photos and paint issues locations.) NOT REPAIRED and totally ignored. They saw so many faults in their paint work that since it would take the Service Center 3 WEEKS to repaint it, they asked us to take the RV to the Paint plant in Belmont, MS, and leave it with them for 3-4 days so that they could totally repaint it. They did put us up in a B&B, but after 3 days, when they rold us to pick it up, they had NOT done much (if anything) as to the paint. They merely fixed the burn marks where Billy had over buffed circles on the D/S wall, repaired some gouges and replaced the engine cover which was severely warped and also had paint issues. Again, PISS POOR QUALITY and LACKING CUSTOMER SUPPORT for a close to $400,000 RV (msrp). We have now accorded with LD at the Service Center and Josh Stacy at the Belmont MS paint plant to call the latter about 2 weeks before we take it back in October to schedule a full repaint on their schedule while the put us up in the B&B for the time it takes to paint it RIGHT this time, including removing and replacing the Diamond Shield, which takes at least 3 days. IF we are willing to have to take it back to them for required SERVICE that it should not have left the QC process at the factory with, the least they can do is to TAKE CARE OF ALL ISSUES CORRECTLY THIS TIME.
- WINDOWS
1. Most sliding windows have gaps showing daylight between window & sash. NOT REPAIRED, told that is just the way they are made and there is nothing that they can do about it.
2. Most windows appear installed upside down or sideways or inside out (by Tiffin logos). NOT REPAIRED, told that is just the way they are made and there is nothing that they can do about it.
- DAYLIGHT GAPS
1. D/S REAR SLIDE daylight seen under and around bed. SEMI REPAIRED, less but still gaps/daylight.
2. P/S REAR daylight under slide and along left side. SEMI REPAIRED, less but still gaps/daylight.
3. P/S REAR lower edge uneven and rough edged, not rounded. SEMI REPAIRED, evened by sanding it even, but the paintwork that normally wraps around bottom edge was left missing/sanded.
- D/S headlight shows with reduced light, has something in it (like glue), not on the outside. Needs replacing for a clear one like the one on P/S. REPAIRED
- Electrical Pop-Up Outlets: Several outlets are of such bad quality that the electrical plugs just won’t go in (even with Bill trying). Tech Michael said that that is just the way they are and that if one ‘plays’ with them they will generally work. We’re sorry, but we did not buy a close to $400,000 RV to have to ‘play with outlets’ to see if we can get them to work. Now the one behind the cooktop just does not work at all and the one to the right of the self-standing dinette is quickly getting to that point as well. AGAIN, PISS POOR QUALITY for a Tiffin. NOT REPAIRED, told that is just the way they are made and there is nothing that they can do about it.
At the main office of the Service Center, where Tim Massey’s office is, there is a cabinet that proudly displays TEN (10) RVDA (Recreational Vehicle Dealer’s (Assn) Awards for being rated as worthy of having achieved High Quality in their production of Tiffin motorhomes. The awards are dated yearly from 2007 to 2017. Beyond 2017 there are no other such awards. Given the lacking quality of ALL the issues on our 2020 Tiffin, it’s no wonder that they have not been awarded any more High Quality awards.
(AWARDS PHOTOS)
The Tiffin Motorhomes Inc. organization is a family-owned business founded by Bob Tiffin in 1972, who continues to serve as its President and CEO. Since its start the company has built and sold over 65,000 motorhomes and at one time the Tiffin name on a motorhome was a distinct symbol of high quality and could be relied upon for getting what one expected of the product. Sadly, since 2018, for whatever reason, the level of high quality and the level of Quality Control has declined at Tiffin Motorhomes in Red Bay, Alabama.
In 2019, apparently in response to their failure to continue to meet their previous high quality standards, according to ‘RV Business’ (www.rvbusiness.com) the company initiated a re-structuring of its personnel and business, according to Bob Tiffin “to prepare the company for future growth”. To improve efficiency, and maintain growth, Tim Tiffin (Bob’s oldest son) was appointed as Vice President of Operations and General Manager to oversee Class C operations at their new facility in Winfield AL and its Wayfarer line of coaches.
Van Leigh “Van” Tiffin Sr., (Bob’s middle son), was appointed as vice-president of Operations for the company’s Class A operations at the Red Bay manufacturing plant and the Belmont, MS state-of-the art paint production facility. His son’s (Bob’s grandson’s) name is Van Leigh (called ‘Leigh) Tiffin (Jr.). Both were star place kicker’s at the University of Alabama’s Crimson Tide football team. In 2013 Bob Tiffin along with Van (Sr.) and Leigh (Jr.) formed a second RV manufacturing company called VANLEIGH RV, specializing only in Towable Fifth Wheel RVs. Van (Sr.) did not go to college to prepare for a career in his father’s business. No, he was a High School All-American football player and attended the University of Alabama, with a major in Public Relations, as the primary place kicker, becoming Alabama lore by his college football exploits and records. In 1986 he was named to the College Football All-America Team. Upon graduation he went on to play football for ONE season with both the Miami Dolphins and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, but that did not work out for him, so he returned to an easy job as a manager at his father’s business. No doubt a good move for him, but not so for the company.
The board of directors also confirmed that Lex Tiffin (Bob’s youngest son) will remain as VP of Supply Chain Maintenance, Repair and Operations. Lex, studied ART at the University of Alabama and his role is stated as “making Quality the #1 goal in the manufacturing process”, titled as the VP of Supply Chain Maintenance, Repair and Operations. In other words he is the Quality Control Manager, a job that he is quite obviously very incapable of, or our coach (like so many others at the Tiffin Service Center) would not have been allowed to leave the factory, having failed multiple inspections at the QC checkpoints Lex refers to. BOB TIFFIN and LEX TIFFIN, I challenge you to drive through the parking lot on Monday mornings (as most coaches come in for service during the weekends) and see just how many Tiffin motorhomes still have dealer plates, indicating the state of their newness, as they have just been purchased at a dealer’s lot and are already in for Warranty Service. We noticed and it was astounding… 24 out of about 40. THAT is just NOT ACCEPTABLE, especially from a VP of Supply Chain Maintenance, Repair and Operations, who is quoted as saying “We do quality right from the start. Quality cannot be inspected into a product; it must be built into each step of the assembly process. A customer deserves quality. After all, a motorhome is a person’s home away from home. They want the same quality in their motorized home as they demand in their stationary home,” but I guess when one is the President’s son one does not have to account to anyone. Well, I disagree. You have to account to the customers who pay their good money (in the hundred thousands) to buy your product. Plus Lex, in case your father hasn’t told you, there is an ever-growing segment of “full-timers” out there (like us), whose motor home is their stationary home, whether traveling or not.
Van Leigh “Leigh” Tiffin (Jr.), Van’s son and Bob’s grandson, also did not go directly into Tiffin Motorhomes Inc, upon graduation from college. He also was a scholarshipped place kicker for the U of Alabama Crimson Tide football team, and upon graduation was given a try-out as a Free Agent with the Cleveland Browns, which he did for ONE season but, like his father was not good enough to play professional football, so he returned home to an easy managerial job, which unlike a professional football team, he did not have to ‘try out for and prove his worth’. His father (Van) had earned the all-time school record for converted extra point attempts at 135, which he held until it was broken by Leigh (Jr.) in 2009, with 136. However, Van was 135 for 135 (never missed), whereas Leigh was 136 for 142. Leigh was also in the All-Region Team (2005), All-American and All-SEC (2009) His job at Tiffin Motorhomes is VP of R&D (Research & Development). There is certainly a strong evidence of athleticism and competitiveness in this family, but does that really qualify anyone for being capacitated toi run a business, or a department of a business?
Perhaps if Bob Tiffin was to set up his sons and grandsons in other businesses, more suitable to their aptitudes (perhaps something sports-oriented) which he certainly has the funds and resources to do, and then gets people that are more capable in business and more specifically in the RV industry (like he and others are), his company can return to its once level of grandeur, recognized for having a high quality product, which it has not seen since 2017.
By contrast, Andy Baer, an RV industry veteran with 26 years of RV industry experience, started with Foretravel Motor Homes, as Director of Sales and Marketing, He also spent 9 years at KZRV LP, departing as their VP of Sales. Then he was recruited to become the National Sales Manager for Tiffin Motorhomes, before leaving Tiffin in 2017 to become the General Manager for Entegra Coach. Then, in 2019, he was apparently re-recruited by Bob Tiffin to come back to Tiffin as the General Manager of these facilities, no doubt a very good business decision by Bob Tiffin, putting people who are experienced and proven in this industry, to key positions in his organization. Well done, Bob!
Brad Witt has also been a permanent fixture at Tiffin Motorhomes (2002 - 2020), with a proven record in this industry, serving as Engineering Mgr, 2002 - 2012), Plant Manager (2012 - 2019), and Director of Fixed Operations (2019 - Current). In this writer’s opinion, these are the type of people Bob needs back at Tiffin Motorhomes as department heads, NOT unproven FAMILY.
At least Tim Tiffin, the oldest son of Bob Tiffin, who also graduated from the University of Alabama and joined his father in the company, started in Purchasing and progressed through the ranks learning the business and taking on greater responsibility as he proved his worth, rising to his present position as General Manager.
As I delve into the corporate structure of this company, certain facts come to the surface which might give some insight as to why the company’s production quality has fallen by the wayside in recent years, after 2017. There is no doubt that Bob Tiffin is a shrewd and business savvy individual, having founded and grown his company in the past 48 years and attained such a high perception of quality that was attached to the Tiffin name. It is also understandable that most successful businessmen would want to bring their children into their business, for after all that is the purpose of most business owners… to leave it to the kids. However, ‘the kids’ need to have a genuine interest and more than that, a good head and aptitude for that business. Otherwise, instead of learning and growing the company, they may destroy it instead. So, I question if the involvement of all of Bob’s children (and even his grandson) is a positive aspect of the best future of the company, or if it is just a simple case of nepotism, which is responsible (at least in part) for the lacking quality of the Tiffin products, when between 2007 and 2017 they consistently won RVDA awards for High Quality, but have been unable to do so in the last 3 years?
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