March 3, 2021 - Back to the TIFFIN Service Center AGAIN... for a THIRD TIME in Year 1.

Well, we are unfortunately having to return to the TIFFIN Service Center in Red Bay Alabama for a THIRD TIME. They say that "the third time is the charm", right? Well, apparently in legal terms the Breach of Warranty Laws also require that a manufacturer fail on THREE (3) attempts to fix a customer's reports of non-working as designed or implied products. The LEMON LAW does not apply here here because the Lemon Law is only as to a 'motorized vehicle', which in a motorhome means the chassis and motor. In our case there is absolutely nothing wrong with these parts of the overall motorhome. ALL the problems are with the manufacture of the parts that make up the rest of the motorhome. Thus the only recourse to the consumer is a Breach of Warranty of the manufacturer, IF after three attempts they still can't correct ALL the reported issues. Then, a consumer can sue for Breach of Warranty and the manufacturer would have to refund the consumer all his expenses in getting their product and take back the RV.... OR replace it. Though if the manufacturer lets the matter go to such lengths, all at the disruption and expense to the consumer, WHY on earth would a consumer take a chance of being subjected to such lengths again with another of the same product.

On this THIRD TRIP to the SERVICE CENTER, this is our list of warranty issues that need to be addressed. As you can see from the items thereon, when compared to previous issues posted on previous visits to the Service Center, MANY are repeated from the first visit... and MANY are even repeated from the second visit, but MANY are also brand NEW.  One even popped up on the trip from Florida to Red Bay.  There does not seem to be an end to the breakdowns on THIS RV, the standard of the Tiffin lineup (not the most expensive, but in many people's opinions, the most popular and most distinctive). 

Through our email for this website (roughingitgently@gmail.com) we continually hear from and communicate with other RVers (many even Tiffin owners, and those who are considering buying one), as to the RV that we currently own. In the last six (6) years we have had the benefit of having had and evaluated four (4)... a 2012 Coachman Encounter, and a 2016 Thor Challenger, both gassers; and a 2015 Fleetwood Discovery 40E and this 2020 Tiffin Phaeton XSH 40IH. As such we generally hear good comments about the Tiffin product from past and present owners; however consistently we also note that the most problems reported on TIFFIN coaches are pertinent to the latest models, say from 2017 to present. And now that it is official that Bob Tiffin sold his company to THOR, of all possible competitiors (though perhaps one of the largest representative of the overall RV market, also consistently the lowest ranked as to performance and quality) in every poll, it may be evident that perhaps he is no longer interested in maintaining a high quality reputation.... and judging from our coach, it shows.

Apart from the PAST reputation of Tiffin Motorhomes for building a good product and standing behind their product, and the fact that we have continually heard from every dealer and past, as well as present, owners that "BOB...will ALWAYS talk to anyone that seeks him out and is always willing to make his customers Happy", we felt motivated and eager to buy a Tiffin last year. Unfortunately, having tried to seek Bob out to visit with or talk to him, he has continually given us the cold shoulder. We have visited his office and been turned away... "No one can see Bob Tiffin, without going through Tim Massey, the Service Manager first" was Security's posture. So we met with Tim Massey, the Service Center Manager and previous factory manager, as well as a friend of Bob Tiffin, and asked him to visit with or be able to talk to Bob Tiffin. You got it... turned down again. We called the 256-356-8661 phone and were told (3x) that he was "not available". Slammed again! It seems that he no longer cares about his customers... or maybe it is just us. In any case we have given up in trying to communicate with him. 

So, we are here for the LAST TIME with THIS RV. We are hoping that IF all the continuing issues we suffer with this RV are particular to THIS RV, that Tiffin will be willing to swap us out of this motorhome, which to us is not just a recreational vehicle, but is actually our only HOME. IF they are, we will continue with another Tiffin, which we pray will change our mind of the Tiffin product, by presenting no issues and making us proud of our ownership, like most all those other Tiffin owners we talk/chat/write to. OTHERWISE, we have managed to obtain a dealer who will buy us out of our Phaeton, and we will trade it for a 2021 or 2022 Fleetwood Discovery LXE 40D, or similar. Let's see where Tiffin stands on standing behind their product and further inconveniencing their customers with an obviously deficient coach. 

Here is the List of ALL the WARRANTY WORK ITEMS for the THIRD VISIT on March, 2021. Note that from our first visit there were over 200 paint issues, which even the Paint Manager admitted that it should never have left the factory is that condition. It spent 15 days in Paint during our 2 previous visits and still there are over 30 places where the paint is deficient, but we have finally just had to give up on their ever getting it all done, as there are too many other more pressing issues to attend to. 

2020 Phaeton  XSH  40IH (VIN:  5VBPA57A1LA120726)

SPYDER ELECTRONIC Screens issues:

- Ongoing issues with 5” screen inside door, sometimes the “button” lights up indicating that the item is on and sometimes it does not.  For example, if the button does not light up when the Road light is turned on, we do not know if it is on unless we walk around to the Driver’s side of the Coach.  Other buttons on this screen have the same issue.  As of the last communication with Christian, they had not seen this issue before and had no idea what might be causing it.

 - On January 31 we found it necessary to reset the clock on the Spyder system, but not due to a Time Zone change.  We had been in the Eastern Time Zone since November 25th, at which point we changed it from Central to Eastern, but at the same time had to adjust the minutes.  On January 31, we had to set the time forward 7 minutes in order to have the correct time showing.  So, in slightly over 2 months Spyder “lost” 7 minutes.  As of February 22, it has “lost” over 2 minutes since being reset.

 - Tank level displays are an ongoing issue.  On December 30 the Spyder display indicated that the Propane tank was empty.  The gauge on the tank itself also indicated nearly empty.  However, when we filled it, it only took 22.2 gallons to fill a 35.9 gallon tank, it should have taken slightly more than 28 gallons to fill the tank if it were truly empty.  How can we be assured of the tank level readings are valid? Also, on February 22, 2021 while flushing the black tank, using the flush hose to refill it a bit with water, it read 20%, so in waiting for it to get to 25%, it suddenly jumped from 20% to 100% and it started hissing out of the toilet. OBVIOUSLY on this coach Spyder has no concept of percentages or good quality.

 - We’re not really sure if this is a Spyder issue or a Tiffin issue, however, we have noted a discrepancy with temperature readings reported on the  touch screens.  For example, the touch screen will read 75 degrees, but we are freezing.  We bought a thermometer to double check the sensor data and yesterday morning when the Spyder system reported 75 degrees, the thermometer read 69.9 degrees.  However, the discrepancy does not seem to be consistent number of degrees, nor is the sensor always higher than the thermometer.

ELECTRICAL ISSUES

• Right Turn Signal (arrow) does not function (light/click) on Dash Instrument Panel, nor does the FRONT turn signal lamp blink.  HOWEVER, ALL the REAR signal lamps on the coach and the turn signal lamps on the tow vehicle DO function properly, despite no signal at the dash.  According to Tech Support (Corbett Davis), they have never seen this issue before.  That’s the second issue that is apparently UNIQUE to this coach.
•  Tail Lights on Tow Vehicle do not work.  Both the Dealer that sold us the Coach and Tiffin Service have taken the attitude that they “do NOT have anything to do with wiring for the Tow Vehicle” and that we would have to take it to a Trailer place that installs tow bars to have the Tow fixed.  During all that time TIFFIN has left us in danger of not being seen at night, due to their laziness and disregard for their customers. We took it to a place that specializes in all types of RV Service and Repair.  They actually TESTED the motorhome before they decided what needed to be done.  Well, there was NOTHING they could do because there was no power being sent to the 7 PIN plug on the motorhome to power the lights on the Tow.  So, IT IS a Tiffin issue.
•  Closet lights turn on for no reason.  This is the third time around for this issue.  The righthand light comes on for no reason.  The fixture was replaced during our first trip to Red Bay in May-June, 2020.  That did not correct the issue so the Techs checked around for other issues and determined that a flap on a storage container on the top shelf of the closet was likely moving when the air came on and that was what was causing the light to turn on at random. However, after correcting the wayward flap (and even removing it later) we determined that that was NOT the issue as the light has continued to turn on randomly.  So, we tried turning the motion sensor off on that light.  That caused a whole new issue to surface… the left-hand light started coming on at random, like the other had done.  We had never seen this light come on randomly before turning the motion sensor off on the righthand light.  We then turned the motion sensor on the righthand light back on; and the righthand light continues to turn on randomly and the new issue we have noted since then is that on at least one occasion BOTH closet lights came on together, for no reason.  And we say NO REASON,  because there were no other systems in the coach on at the time (A/C, Heat Pump, Furnace, Generator were ALL OFF) or turning on or off to generate movement, and there was no wind that caused movement in the motorhome.  In short, there was NO motion to cause it.  We even noted that the closet rod bounces up and down during the washing machine’s spin cycle.  At 1200 RPMs, there is quite a bit of bounce, but it doesn’t cause the lights to come on.  The concern now is that the lights coming on randomly is a symptom of a potentially greater issue… an systemic electrical problem somewhere in the coach.
• On Feb. 3, P/S Bay light (3rd door from front) stopped working. It is a strip light with no On/Off switch. We waved our hand under it to no avail.  Several days later, however,  it began working again when the door was opened. Coach had not been moved or had any interruption in power to cause this situation.
• Main Cabin lights  (hockey puck lights) flicker when they have been on for a while.  We have video of this.
• On March 2, while traveling to Red Bay from Central Florida it rained.  About halfway through the trip, we noted an intermittent problem.  The colors displayed on the dash would change when the wipers were turned off or on.  This is an intermittent issue that does not happen every time, but does occur.  We have video of this realtime as it is happening. 

 ALL SLIDE ISSUES

• The slides are notably off kilter… tighter at top, more open at bottom; more closed on one end than the other. This is probably WHY there is so much light/cold air coming in around the slides.  We have brought the slide issues up to Warranty Service and the “Solution” has been to place bulkier weather stripping around the slide so that it appears tighter, but that falls off 3 weeks later and does NOT resolve the issue of improper slide alignment and the gaps around the slide when it is open for some slides and closed for others.  We have visually inspected other Phaeton RVs and have photo evidence of a correctly installed slide, pressed tight against the sidewall all the way around with no greater gap on any side, which is contrary to photos of our Phaeton.  Tiffin has refused to properly correct the issue with the slides, choosing to utilize weather stripping, rather than to do the job right.  This is just NOT ACCEPTABLE, Bob!!
• D/S Rear:  As has been noted on prior visits to Red Bay, when the rear left slide is open, there is substantial daylight evident at the bottom corners of the slide and across under the bed.  There is also daylight visible down the left side of the slide.  It seems that the slide is   not aligned correctly as the edge of the slide opening on the left side of the slide is quite visible while on the right, it is not, indicating that it is shifted to the right of center of the opening.
• On the Oct./Nov. 2020 visit to Red Bay, we reported that, while the top of this slide on the outside was tight with the outer coach wall, the bottom was not.  The “solution” was to add a thick weather strip to the bottom of the slide, to hold it tightly against the wall of the coach.  Glad we didn’t pay for this work to be done, as in less than 3 weeks we found the weatherstripping laying on the ground under the slide.
• Alignment would appear to be off with a gap on the left side when the slide is open and at the bottom when the slide is closed.
• P/S Rear:  This slide suffers the same issues as the D/S Rear, alignment and daylight
• There are several areas across the bottom of the slide that display daylight when the slide is open.  This has also been reported on our two previous visits, but with no action taken to correct.
• There is daylight down the left side of this slide when it is closed.
• This slides have several alignment issues.  When open it is higher on the forward end of the slide than the rear (next to the W/D compartment).  When closed one end is further out than the other.  As with the D/S Rear, the top is tight to the side of the coach when closed, but the bottom displays a gap to the side of the coach.
• Though this would represent a great deal of inconvenience to us, we would suggest that ALL the slides be completely removed and then re-aligned in to insure a correct alignment when closed. They should ALL fit firmly all around when closed, as we have photo evidence of the same result in other Phaeton motorhomes.

 FRONT DOOR

• Door latch will not release properly.  This has been addressed on two prior occasions.  However, since the last report the door latch has failed twice.  First time it “broke” it nearly locked us out of the motorhome.  The door was not locked and when Bill attempted to enter, it would partially release the outer and screen doors, but not open, because the screen door was still attached to the frame.  The screen door refused to let go, despite pulling on it hard.  Luckily, Mary was inside and released the latch on the screen door.  The next morning, there was no problem with the screen door latch releasing.  However, at Tim Massey’s suggestion, we removed a piece from the latch system, so we are now required to release the main door and screen door independently of each other, which is VERY inconvenient and sometimes the doors still stick and act like they won’t open, even when we have to release them individually.  The other behavior change we have made it to leave a window unlocked and the ladder readily accessible so that Mary can crawl through a window if necessary.  Since this will be round 3 on this door latch, even though Tim has committed to replacing the door if necessary, we have little confidence in our ability to easily enter or exit the coach as the latch will have been repaired three times and while it worked well for a short time after the first two repairs, it broke yet again, all in the space of 7 months.  Tim also seemed to indicate that our description of the issue was one that he had not encountered before… making this the THIRD issue with this motorhome that is UNIQUE.  Lucky us, to have had the fortune to get the LEMON of the Tiffin line.
• On February 24th, we left the motorhome at 8:30 am, locking the door with the remote.  When we returned home at 8:30 pm, we found that we were locked out.  Neither of the remotes would unlock the door and neither would the key pad.  Fortunately, we keep an entire set of keys to the motorhome in our tow and we finally were able to enter the coach by using the key.  At least I didn’t have to crawl through a window.  So now we have a new issue with the locks to resolve, which will require that the door, locks, and the entire locking mechanism/system be replaced.  Or more responsibly the entire coach should be replaced given the magnitude of the issues we have encountered.  The reliability of this coach is totally in question.  We have spoken to other Tiffin owners in person and in forums and no one else seems to have the type of ongoing, significant issues that we have encountered and have had to return for additional service, to no avail.  The same issues return and new ones constantly appear.

Tim Massey, Service Manager has offerred to completely replace the front door entirely, with new hardware and inside screen door, to avoid further issues of anyone getting locked out again. We believe that such sould be the minimum action required; though for our money the our best ioption would be to simply replace the coach with one that works overall.

MAIN BATH

• Flooring: The engine cover in the master bath is warping and coming up around the edges.  The edges are no longer flush with the floor and catch the vacuum head during cleaning.
• Shower Wall:
• The righthand side of the shower frame is pulling away from the wall.
• Shower glass spline is coming out of the track, front of glass enclosure next to toilet.
• Bedroom Paneling behind the sliding bathroom door is pulling away from wall. Very poor-quality materials.

  MISCELLANEOUS ITEMS

• Two Satellite (Traveler and In Motion) came with this coach. However, the TVs only work with the Traveler; why won’t they work with In Motion when it came with the coach?
•  Hinge on left hand door under dinette is loose, which is odd because this door is not frequently used. Poor workmanship.
• Of all the paint issues we are willing to forego, two we want fixed.  One is a piece of molding under the P/S Front slide that needs to be secured to the side of the coach and the other is in the crown on the P/S.  Warranty and Belmont Paint have failed to successfully address these during either of the two previous visits, during 15 days in the paint shop, as we have given up in trying to get Tiffin to repair all their individual paint screwups.
• Patio Awning fails to retract at a consistent wind speed, sometimes with gusts as high as 16 MPH it does not retract.  Others it retracts at 10 MPH. Also, it does not close entirely on one end.

PREVIOUSLY REPAIRED - STILL NOT FULLY FIXED

• Theater seating was replaced in Nov.  However, the right seat (facing the unit) still leans to the left…concern that it too will break?  Not requesting replacement at this time, just reporting that this one has similar issues to the one that broke and had to be replaced.
• Shower head still has a substantial leak when the water is shut off at the shower head itself.  (Replaced May/June) No replacement requested; we will purchase a higher-quality shower head that better meets our needs.
• P/S Mirror still leaves a blind spot.  We understand that this is a design defect, but one that is truly a safety issue.  There should have been a solution identified by now.  The response "that is just the way it is made and there is no fix for it”, is not acceptable to a driver who cannot see if there is someone on his right side except to take his eyes off of the road to check the camera, which is not that clear either.

This motorhome continues to have significant issues, several of which have already been addressed, but the “solution” was not a resolution of the issue.  In the above issue descriptions, there are at least 3 items outlined which are NEW to either Tiffin Warranty Service or Spyder.  These items generate significant concerns in our minds regarding the reliability of this coach.  These concerns fall into the following categories:

1.     Are the closet lights, dash instrument panel, and lack of tail light signal symptoms of a larger electrical issue?  One that could cause us to be stranded or worse yet, a fire?

2.     On the surface the Spyder issues seem to be nothing more than an annoyance, however, are they potentially related to an underlying electrical issue?  Or does the system installed in this coach just not work?  We have previously reported anomalies with the reporting of the tank levels, only to have the functionality of the “sonar” system explained to us again.  The repeated explanation does not help when we are trying to determine what is going on with the tank levels in the coach.  Does the addition of the observation that the Spyder System’s clock is losing time provide any helpful background?

3.     The repeated issue with the entry door is really not acceptable.  In the nearly 10 months we have had this coach, the door has only worked properly  about 2 months.  This too is a safety issue and an embarrassing situation for the owner of a brand-new Tiffin.

We  will be happy to discuss or clarify any of the above items in greater detail with anyone, but on the advice of our lawyer, who has recommended that we try to resolve this with the manufacturer amicably before legal action is called for, we are back in Red Bay to see what Tiffin Motorhomes is willing to do to bring this nightmare to an end?  Since we live in this motorhome full-time, we need home that is reliable and that we can depend on.  Driving 1,700 miles one way for repairs is not acceptable and fully half of the current mileage is due to travels to and from Red Bay.  We are seeking a real and final solution and will not accept being “patted on the head and given platitudes” any more. Should you have any questions or comments, feel free to contact us on it, at:

roughingitgently@gmail.com